A poll gave the following choices:
How many here could accept BKP as the next prophet?
If the Lord calls him I will sustain him (27 votes [79.41%] - View)
Percentage of vote: 79.41%
I would be very uncomfortable with him (3 votes [8.82%] - View)
Percentage of vote: 8.82%
I would go inactive until the next prophet (0 votes [0.00%])
Percentage of vote: 0.00%
I would apostatize and leave the church (0 votes [0.00%])
Percentage of vote: 0.00%
Other (please explain) (4 votes [11.76%] - View)
And the pollster commented:
"I have noticed recently that Elder Boyd K Packer (the president of the council of the Twelve) has become the new punching bag for the critics (LDS) on this board. He seems to have replaced Elder McConkie and President Joseph Fielding Smith as the most vilified and hated of the modern apostles. I am frankly shocked at the disrespect and open hostility exhibited by some "LDS" board members. Since he is the President of the Council of the Twelve, it is within the realm of possibility that he could one day become the President of the Church if President Monson passes away before he does. So I was curious to see how the vote would go with some here."
To which I responded:
In my own opinion, it would be a disaster for the LDS Church and generally if BKP would become the president of the church. But to be clear, although that is my opinion, I still believe that BKP is a man of God, and I sustain him as a prophet, seer, and revelator. Nevertheless, one's status as a man of God, or even a prophet, in no way insulates his purported revelations from scrutiny, and a great many errors have been perpetuated by believers mistaking a leader's personal opinion for authentic revelation (even when the purported revelation is cloaked in officiality). So at this point, while I would "sustain" BKP in his official capacity, I would not swallow everything he says just because of his position. Though I believe BKP is sincere, I also strongly believe that he lacks critical thinking skills and is very closed minded and autocratic in his theological approach. Though I bear no ill-will to BKP personally, I honestly believe the LDS Church would be much better off if BKP never becomes president. I therefore selected the second choice in the poll.
Wednesday, November 24, 2010
Monday, November 22, 2010
Utah And Depression Rates
The comment was made:
"Get ready for the next round of anti-Mormon schadenfreude and armchair psychoanalysis of all Utahans, courtesy of of ABC News:
Quote
Two Studies Find Depression Widespread in Utah
Study Calling Utah Most Depressed, Renews Debate on Root Causes
By RUSSELL GOLDMAN
March 7, 2008
The still waters of the Great Salt Lake run deep -- and dark.
Gotta love the melodramatic intro!
Quote
Take Wendy, a 40-year-old teacher and mother of three from Utah County. To all appearances, she led the perfect life. Just as she was expected to, she went from high school cheerleader to Mormon missionary to wife and mother.
"But life has a funny way of not being perfect," she said. "Three years into my marriage my husband was drinking, using drugs and stepping out on me.
Not much mystery, then, as to the probably source of this woman's depression.
Quote
"I knew I was depressed and needed help, but there is a stigma about depression in this area," said Wendy, who asked that ABCNEWS.com not use her last name. "People think it's a sign of weakness. It means you're not capable of being a good mother or wife or teacher."
I'm not sure this is unique to Utah.
Quote
Wendy's secret is Utah's secret. The postcard image of Utah is a state of gleaming cities, majestic mountains and persistently smiling people. But new research shows a very different picture of the state, a snapshot of suicide and widespread depression.
A recent study by Mental Health America, the country's oldest independent mental health advocacy organization, ranked Utah the most depressed state in the country.
The study mentioned above is available here. It states that there are "statistically significant associations between the following factors and better depression status and lower suicide rates:"
* Mental health resources - On average, the higher the number of psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers per capita in a state, the lower the suicide rate.
* Barriers to treatment - The lower the percentage of the population reporting that they could not obtain healthcare because of costs, the lower the suicide rate and the better the state's depression status. In addition, the lower the percentage of the population that reported unmet mental healthcare needs, the better the state's depression status.
* Mental health treatment utilization - Holding the baseline level of depression in the state constant, the higher the number of antidepressant prescriptions per capita in the state, the lower the suicide rate.
* Socioeconomic characteristics - The more educated the population and the greater the percentage with health insurance, the lower the suicide rate. The more educated the population, the better the state's depression status.
I don't see "religious peer pressure" listed here, but I bet that won't stop self-appointed experts (and idiotic reporters) from fabricating such a connection.
Quote
Another survey released last week by drug distribution company Express Scripts found that residents of Utah were prescribed antidepressant drugs more than those of any other state and at twice the national average.
Right. And the decreased level of alcohol consumption in Utah (a leading means of self-medicating for depression) gets no mention here.
Quote
According to MHA, some 10.14 percent of adults in Utah "experienced a depressive episode in the past year and 14.15 percent experienced serious psychological distress. ... Individuals in Utah reported having on average 3.27 poor mental health days in the past 30 days."
The reason for Utah's mass depression, however, is unknown.
"The truth is, we don't know why," said Dr. Ted Wander, spokesman for the Utah Psychiatric Association.
Gotta love the not-so-subtle editorializing ("mass depression").
And although the experts apparently don't know the reason for comparatively higher levels of depression in Utah, ABC News helps out with giving us a reason - graphically. Check out the image that appears at the top of the article:
Doesn't leave much room for doubt about the reason for Utah's levels of depression (according to ABC News, anyway), does it?
Quote
Neither study was broken down by gender, but nationally women are twice as likely to be diagnosed with depressive disorders as men, experts told ABC News.
Psychiatrists point to several factors that could contribute to Utah's high levels of depression: limited mental health resources, restricted access to treatment as a result of cost, poor quality of resources and a varied list of other factors, including an underfunded educational system and a culture deeply rooted in the Mormon faith.
That last one wasn't mentioned anywhere in the study that triggered this article. Instead, the reporter's relying on anecdotal observations.
Quote
"Availability to resources, a lack of professionals and barriers to treatment, including the ability to pay all drive up instances of depression," said Dr. Curtis Canning, a Logan-based psychiatrist and former president of the Utah Psychiatric Association. "But there is also -- especially when it comes to women and girls -- a cultural factor."
Seventy percent of Utah's residents are Mormon. When Express Scripts issued its first national survey of prescription drug use in 2002, it sparked a heated debate across Utah about what, if any role, the church played in the state's high dependence on antidepressants such as Prozac and Zoloft.
"In Mormon culture females are supposed accept a calling. They are to be constantly smiling over their family of five. They are supposed to take supper across the street to an ill neighbor and then put up with their husband when he comes home from work and smile about it the whole time. There is this sense that Mrs. Jones down street is doing the same thing, and there is this undercurrent of competition. To be a good mother and wife, women have to put on this mask of perfection. They can't show their tears, depression or agony," Canning said.
I don't follow this. There are plenty of expectations placed upon Mormon men, too. So why is Dr. Canning calling out social pressures placed on LDS women and girls?
Quote
"Obedience, conformity and maintaining a sense of harmony" are unspoken but widely recognized behaviors, which all contribute to what he calls "the Mother of Zion syndrome."
Hmm. Sounds like Dr. Canning is looking to make a name for himself by coining a neologism, one that comes at the expense of the LDS Church.
After all, it's not like any other element of society places pressures on women, right?
Quote
When Wendy first started seeking professional help and was put on Zoloft 10 years ago, she felt the sting of shame even from her own family members.
This isn't unique to Mormons.
Quote
"Marriage and family are so important that there was a huge amount of pressure to make things work. I was supposed to try harder, and buck up and that would make me happier and keep my husband from abusing me," she said.
This isn't a response unique to Mormons, either.
Quote
"There are expectations from the community, but mostly from other women," she said. "It doesn't come down from the church necessarily, but it's passed from mother to daughter. My family was reluctant to see me taking the drugs, but since seeing me at my worst, they now encourage me to take my meds."
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints, however, says the high number of prescriptions is a result of people receiving the drugs they need in Utah more than in other places.
"I don't think it's clear that there's a crisis in Utah," said Brent Scharman, a psychologist and the assistant commissioner of LDS Family Services, a church network that provides counseling. "You've got one camp that says there is more depression and another camp that says we just have more consumers." Scharman said studies on organized religion and depression found that religious people were generally happier than nonreligious people, and that held true for Mormons.
Funny how the reporter waits until the third page of the article to let the reader know about these studies.
Quote
"It always boils down to the issue of what influence the LDS lifestyle has on the depression phenomenon," he said. "Non-LDS and some LDS people say this is a kind of driven lifestyle and that we push too hard and smile too much. But studies show, and those living it out see, that religion is good support. It creates a positive network and helps people get through crises and deal with long-term problems.
"Are there people who feel 'I'm not living up to the LDS ideal,' or 'I'm not living up to my family's expectations'? Absolutely, there is no question. But having done counseling outside the LDS community, I saw people there, too, who were depressed because of perfectionism," he said. "I wouldn't say it is any worse here than in more diverse communities."
Thoughts?"
To which I responded:
Let me start by saying that I am no "self-appointed expert." I certainly have my opinion which is based upon my own life's experiences and what I have been able to observe in other people.
1. Depression is found everywhere, both in and out of the church, everywhere in the world, and among both men and women, children and adults, etc.
2. Depression seems more common among women.
3. Depression among church members is partially brought about by highly unrealistic expectations of achievement, manifestations of spiritual devotion, and so-called sexual purity.
4. Certain church standards contribute to decreased depression in other areas. For example, the Word of Wisdom generally helps to keep people's bodies healthier, making them more functional and less depressed.
"Get ready for the next round of anti-Mormon schadenfreude and armchair psychoanalysis of all Utahans, courtesy of of ABC News:
Quote
Two Studies Find Depression Widespread in Utah
Study Calling Utah Most Depressed, Renews Debate on Root Causes
By RUSSELL GOLDMAN
March 7, 2008
The still waters of the Great Salt Lake run deep -- and dark.
Gotta love the melodramatic intro!
Quote
Take Wendy, a 40-year-old teacher and mother of three from Utah County. To all appearances, she led the perfect life. Just as she was expected to, she went from high school cheerleader to Mormon missionary to wife and mother.
"But life has a funny way of not being perfect," she said. "Three years into my marriage my husband was drinking, using drugs and stepping out on me.
Not much mystery, then, as to the probably source of this woman's depression.
Quote
"I knew I was depressed and needed help, but there is a stigma about depression in this area," said Wendy, who asked that ABCNEWS.com not use her last name. "People think it's a sign of weakness. It means you're not capable of being a good mother or wife or teacher."
I'm not sure this is unique to Utah.
Quote
Wendy's secret is Utah's secret. The postcard image of Utah is a state of gleaming cities, majestic mountains and persistently smiling people. But new research shows a very different picture of the state, a snapshot of suicide and widespread depression.
A recent study by Mental Health America, the country's oldest independent mental health advocacy organization, ranked Utah the most depressed state in the country.
The study mentioned above is available here. It states that there are "statistically significant associations between the following factors and better depression status and lower suicide rates:"
* Mental health resources - On average, the higher the number of psychiatrists, psychologists and social workers per capita in a state, the lower the suicide rate.
* Barriers to treatment - The lower the percentage of the population reporting that they could not obtain healthcare because of costs, the lower the suicide rate and the better the state's depression status. In addition, the lower the percentage of the population that reported unmet mental healthcare needs, the better the state's depression status.
* Mental health treatment utilization - Holding the baseline level of depression in the state constant, the higher the number of antidepressant prescriptions per capita in the state, the lower the suicide rate.
* Socioeconomic characteristics - The more educated the population and the greater the percentage with health insurance, the lower the suicide rate. The more educated the population, the better the state's depression status.
I don't see "religious peer pressure" listed here, but I bet that won't stop self-appointed experts (and idiotic reporters) from fabricating such a connection.
Quote
Another survey released last week by drug distribution company Express Scripts found that residents of Utah were prescribed antidepressant drugs more than those of any other state and at twice the national average.
Right. And the decreased level of alcohol consumption in Utah (a leading means of self-medicating for depression) gets no mention here.
Quote
According to MHA, some 10.14 percent of adults in Utah "experienced a depressive episode in the past year and 14.15 percent experienced serious psychological distress. ... Individuals in Utah reported having on average 3.27 poor mental health days in the past 30 days."
The reason for Utah's mass depression, however, is unknown.
"The truth is, we don't know why," said Dr. Ted Wander, spokesman for the Utah Psychiatric Association.
Gotta love the not-so-subtle editorializing ("mass depression").
And although the experts apparently don't know the reason for comparatively higher levels of depression in Utah, ABC News helps out with giving us a reason - graphically. Check out the image that appears at the top of the article:
Doesn't leave much room for doubt about the reason for Utah's levels of depression (according to ABC News, anyway), does it?
Quote
Neither study was broken down by gender, but nationally women are twice as likely to be diagnosed with depressive disorders as men, experts told ABC News.
Psychiatrists point to several factors that could contribute to Utah's high levels of depression: limited mental health resources, restricted access to treatment as a result of cost, poor quality of resources and a varied list of other factors, including an underfunded educational system and a culture deeply rooted in the Mormon faith.
That last one wasn't mentioned anywhere in the study that triggered this article. Instead, the reporter's relying on anecdotal observations.
Quote
"Availability to resources, a lack of professionals and barriers to treatment, including the ability to pay all drive up instances of depression," said Dr. Curtis Canning, a Logan-based psychiatrist and former president of the Utah Psychiatric Association. "But there is also -- especially when it comes to women and girls -- a cultural factor."
Seventy percent of Utah's residents are Mormon. When Express Scripts issued its first national survey of prescription drug use in 2002, it sparked a heated debate across Utah about what, if any role, the church played in the state's high dependence on antidepressants such as Prozac and Zoloft.
"In Mormon culture females are supposed accept a calling. They are to be constantly smiling over their family of five. They are supposed to take supper across the street to an ill neighbor and then put up with their husband when he comes home from work and smile about it the whole time. There is this sense that Mrs. Jones down street is doing the same thing, and there is this undercurrent of competition. To be a good mother and wife, women have to put on this mask of perfection. They can't show their tears, depression or agony," Canning said.
I don't follow this. There are plenty of expectations placed upon Mormon men, too. So why is Dr. Canning calling out social pressures placed on LDS women and girls?
Quote
"Obedience, conformity and maintaining a sense of harmony" are unspoken but widely recognized behaviors, which all contribute to what he calls "the Mother of Zion syndrome."
Hmm. Sounds like Dr. Canning is looking to make a name for himself by coining a neologism, one that comes at the expense of the LDS Church.
After all, it's not like any other element of society places pressures on women, right?
Quote
When Wendy first started seeking professional help and was put on Zoloft 10 years ago, she felt the sting of shame even from her own family members.
This isn't unique to Mormons.
Quote
"Marriage and family are so important that there was a huge amount of pressure to make things work. I was supposed to try harder, and buck up and that would make me happier and keep my husband from abusing me," she said.
This isn't a response unique to Mormons, either.
Quote
"There are expectations from the community, but mostly from other women," she said. "It doesn't come down from the church necessarily, but it's passed from mother to daughter. My family was reluctant to see me taking the drugs, but since seeing me at my worst, they now encourage me to take my meds."
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints, however, says the high number of prescriptions is a result of people receiving the drugs they need in Utah more than in other places.
"I don't think it's clear that there's a crisis in Utah," said Brent Scharman, a psychologist and the assistant commissioner of LDS Family Services, a church network that provides counseling. "You've got one camp that says there is more depression and another camp that says we just have more consumers." Scharman said studies on organized religion and depression found that religious people were generally happier than nonreligious people, and that held true for Mormons.
Funny how the reporter waits until the third page of the article to let the reader know about these studies.
Quote
"It always boils down to the issue of what influence the LDS lifestyle has on the depression phenomenon," he said. "Non-LDS and some LDS people say this is a kind of driven lifestyle and that we push too hard and smile too much. But studies show, and those living it out see, that religion is good support. It creates a positive network and helps people get through crises and deal with long-term problems.
"Are there people who feel 'I'm not living up to the LDS ideal,' or 'I'm not living up to my family's expectations'? Absolutely, there is no question. But having done counseling outside the LDS community, I saw people there, too, who were depressed because of perfectionism," he said. "I wouldn't say it is any worse here than in more diverse communities."
Thoughts?"
To which I responded:
Let me start by saying that I am no "self-appointed expert." I certainly have my opinion which is based upon my own life's experiences and what I have been able to observe in other people.
1. Depression is found everywhere, both in and out of the church, everywhere in the world, and among both men and women, children and adults, etc.
2. Depression seems more common among women.
3. Depression among church members is partially brought about by highly unrealistic expectations of achievement, manifestations of spiritual devotion, and so-called sexual purity.
4. Certain church standards contribute to decreased depression in other areas. For example, the Word of Wisdom generally helps to keep people's bodies healthier, making them more functional and less depressed.
On The Claim That Societal Morality Is On A "Downward Trend"
One person commented, in response to a question of whether societal moral values today are less than in times past:
"Premarital sex. Children born to unwed mothers. Number of fathers who do not support their offspring. I'd say there has been a downward trend."
To which I responded:
These evils pale in comparison to the evils of the past like slavery, tyranny, and oppression. I marvel at how consensual sexual sin consistently ranks at or near the top of the list of evils perceived by doomsday TBMs who seem to think practically the whole world (except for themselves) is going to hell in a handbasket.
"Premarital sex. Children born to unwed mothers. Number of fathers who do not support their offspring. I'd say there has been a downward trend."
To which I responded:
These evils pale in comparison to the evils of the past like slavery, tyranny, and oppression. I marvel at how consensual sexual sin consistently ranks at or near the top of the list of evils perceived by doomsday TBMs who seem to think practically the whole world (except for themselves) is going to hell in a handbasket.
The Likely Reason The LDS Church Website Does Not Contain Overt Condemnation Of Masturbation
The question was put (December 2008):
"I recently found a copy of the pamphlet "To Young Men Only" that I received as a young man in the late 70's. It was a talk given by Boyd K. Packer at the Priesthood session of General Conference October 2, 1976. I checked on the church website and found that this talk is not there. The talk by Marion G. Romney makes reference to it, but Packer's talk is missing. I am just wondering why the church does not have this on their website. Have they changed their position on the contents of the talk, or did they remove it to avoid ridicule from critics?"
To which I responded:
My own belief is that the talk alienates many would-be investigators because the science and data available on sexuality indicate that masturbation is simply a natural and acceptable practice. The pamphlet "to young men only" has as its target audience a group which is fragile and vulnerable and ignorant, and which in many cases can be made to feel guilty about the sexuality God gave them. I was among that crowd as a teenage boy. No one came to my aid to explain that Boyd K. Packer's views on the topic were rejected by the majority of the scientific community. As I have said before, there hardly was a doctrine more likely to induce self-loathing in LDS young men than that masturbation is sinful.
To which one person responded:
"In this instance, what you characterize as the attitude of "the majority of the scientific community" is at odds with the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ. As a general Church leader, Elder Packer was entirely within the purview of his duty. Furthermore, he, not the secular "scientific community," is qualified to make pronouncements about what is morally acceptable from the standpoint of the Church."
To which I responded:
Scott: agreed. Elder Packer acting in his capacity as an official prophet, seer, and revelator, and had the authority to issue the pronouncement on behalf of the church. Just don't expect people to come flocking to Zion if it is a place where our God-given sexuality is so stifled that it becomes virtually non-existent. There is a reason why for so many decades the missionaries' approach was not to teach the so-called law of chastity until the investigator had first received a testimony about the BoM, the church, etc. It is because it would scare off a lot of people who might not even consider hearing what the missionaries have to say. Likewise, I think the church's website is intended to put on a face that is not so utterly repugnant to the world that people will be turned off. Later on, once they have a "testimony," the chastity guilt trip can take effect in more private spheres and they will feel trapped into feeling like they have betrayed the Spirit if they later back out because of perceived chastity concerns.
And another person skeptically commented:
"we stifle sexuality? hmmm maybe we define the word differently. do you suppose the high birth rate in the church is more related to 'thinking of god and queen'?"
To which I responded:
A high birth rate does not necessarily mean more sex or even a better sex life. It is more likely attributable to less birth control, prohibition on abortion, a culture which pushes the idea that large families generally are better families, and a view that financial and educational obstacles should not cause people to hold off on having kids. I don't know what you mean by the "thinking of god and queen" comment.
"I recently found a copy of the pamphlet "To Young Men Only" that I received as a young man in the late 70's. It was a talk given by Boyd K. Packer at the Priesthood session of General Conference October 2, 1976. I checked on the church website and found that this talk is not there. The talk by Marion G. Romney makes reference to it, but Packer's talk is missing. I am just wondering why the church does not have this on their website. Have they changed their position on the contents of the talk, or did they remove it to avoid ridicule from critics?"
To which I responded:
My own belief is that the talk alienates many would-be investigators because the science and data available on sexuality indicate that masturbation is simply a natural and acceptable practice. The pamphlet "to young men only" has as its target audience a group which is fragile and vulnerable and ignorant, and which in many cases can be made to feel guilty about the sexuality God gave them. I was among that crowd as a teenage boy. No one came to my aid to explain that Boyd K. Packer's views on the topic were rejected by the majority of the scientific community. As I have said before, there hardly was a doctrine more likely to induce self-loathing in LDS young men than that masturbation is sinful.
To which one person responded:
"In this instance, what you characterize as the attitude of "the majority of the scientific community" is at odds with the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ. As a general Church leader, Elder Packer was entirely within the purview of his duty. Furthermore, he, not the secular "scientific community," is qualified to make pronouncements about what is morally acceptable from the standpoint of the Church."
To which I responded:
Scott: agreed. Elder Packer acting in his capacity as an official prophet, seer, and revelator, and had the authority to issue the pronouncement on behalf of the church. Just don't expect people to come flocking to Zion if it is a place where our God-given sexuality is so stifled that it becomes virtually non-existent. There is a reason why for so many decades the missionaries' approach was not to teach the so-called law of chastity until the investigator had first received a testimony about the BoM, the church, etc. It is because it would scare off a lot of people who might not even consider hearing what the missionaries have to say. Likewise, I think the church's website is intended to put on a face that is not so utterly repugnant to the world that people will be turned off. Later on, once they have a "testimony," the chastity guilt trip can take effect in more private spheres and they will feel trapped into feeling like they have betrayed the Spirit if they later back out because of perceived chastity concerns.
And another person skeptically commented:
"we stifle sexuality? hmmm maybe we define the word differently. do you suppose the high birth rate in the church is more related to 'thinking of god and queen'?"
To which I responded:
A high birth rate does not necessarily mean more sex or even a better sex life. It is more likely attributable to less birth control, prohibition on abortion, a culture which pushes the idea that large families generally are better families, and a view that financial and educational obstacles should not cause people to hold off on having kids. I don't know what you mean by the "thinking of god and queen" comment.
On Disagreement As Proof That The LDS Church Is True
The comment was made:
"In his 1982 book "The Millennial Messiah" Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated that there will be an increasing polarization of views.
"In the very nature of things, the signs of the times will not cease until the Lord comes. Those that involve chaos and commotion and distress of nations will continue in the future with even greater destructive force. Men's hearts will fail them for fear in greater degree hereafter than heretofore. Wars will get worse. Moments of armistice and peace will be less stable. Viewed in the perspective of years, all worldly things will degenerate. There will be an increasing polarization of views.
There will be more apostasy from the Church, more summer saints and sunshine patriots who will be won over to the cause of the adversary. Those who support the kingdom because of the loaves and the fishes will find other bread to eat.
While the faithful saints get better and better, and cleave more firmly to the heaven-sent standards, the world will get worse and worse and will cleave to the policies and views of Lucifer" (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, 404).
I have observed that polarization happening for several years. And happening in increasing intensity, particularly as I interact online with others on the subject of religion, and even more particularly as I observe the ever growing difference in the thinking of conservatives and liberals on the political scene.
1. Have you observed such a polarization of views?
2. If my observations are valid, is that increasing polarization part of the prophesied future separation of the righteous from the wicked?
"And until that hour there will be foolish virgins among the wise; and at that hour cometh an entire separation of the righteous and the wicked; and in that day will I send mine angels to pluck out the wicked and cast them into unquenchable fire." D&C 63: 54
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/63/54
What say you?"
To which I responded:
We have a "modern day bias" which causes us to reach conclusions about the world without adequate knowledge of history. If war and conflict are any evidence of "polarized views," then I would likely conclude that views have become much less polarized over the last century or so; people have managed to live in relative peace when compared to the level of wars, racism, oppression, savagery, etc. in prior historic eras.
Brother McConkie was probably focusing, as usual, on the perceived breakdown of the traditional family, due in large part to more liberal attitudes towards both individuality and sexuality. There is no doubt that the broad, general modern trend in the world has been away from religious dogma and towards more tolerance and understanding for different views and lifestyles. One negative side effect of that has been the rise of moral relativism and in some instances practically militant hatred towards religion in general. But that is not true about western culture across the board. I perceive that a great many people, who, although they reject some strict religious teachings (including puritannical brands of chastity), nevertheless retain a great deal of tolerance in allowing everyone to hold whatever private beliefs they wish, including religious fundamentalism.
Science and the availability of information have greatly changed the landscape of the evidence available to be considered by people in reaching their conclusions about religion. It is no surprise that the LDS church, which continues to cling to puritannical brands of chastity, feels threatened by the world's movement away from that philosophy. So far, the church has largely reacted by entrenching itself in its position (other than conceding that some people through no fault of their own have to deal with same-sex attraction and backing off on the prohibition on intra-marriage oral sex). If the church's actions, concurrent with the world's continued movement towards liberalization and tolerance towards sexuality can be considered a "polarization of views," then certainly it is happening. But it is by no means proof that the Second Coming is near. It is easy to point to the "polarization of views" as a fulfilled prophecy that proves the truth of McConkie's position that the LDS doctrine is correct and that the world is getting more wicked. But in fairness, I think we can say that people will always disagree, and that such disagreement proves little more than that the truth is not as obvious as some zealots claim.
"In his 1982 book "The Millennial Messiah" Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated that there will be an increasing polarization of views.
"In the very nature of things, the signs of the times will not cease until the Lord comes. Those that involve chaos and commotion and distress of nations will continue in the future with even greater destructive force. Men's hearts will fail them for fear in greater degree hereafter than heretofore. Wars will get worse. Moments of armistice and peace will be less stable. Viewed in the perspective of years, all worldly things will degenerate. There will be an increasing polarization of views.
There will be more apostasy from the Church, more summer saints and sunshine patriots who will be won over to the cause of the adversary. Those who support the kingdom because of the loaves and the fishes will find other bread to eat.
While the faithful saints get better and better, and cleave more firmly to the heaven-sent standards, the world will get worse and worse and will cleave to the policies and views of Lucifer" (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, 404).
I have observed that polarization happening for several years. And happening in increasing intensity, particularly as I interact online with others on the subject of religion, and even more particularly as I observe the ever growing difference in the thinking of conservatives and liberals on the political scene.
1. Have you observed such a polarization of views?
2. If my observations are valid, is that increasing polarization part of the prophesied future separation of the righteous from the wicked?
"And until that hour there will be foolish virgins among the wise; and at that hour cometh an entire separation of the righteous and the wicked; and in that day will I send mine angels to pluck out the wicked and cast them into unquenchable fire." D&C 63: 54
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/63/54
What say you?"
To which I responded:
We have a "modern day bias" which causes us to reach conclusions about the world without adequate knowledge of history. If war and conflict are any evidence of "polarized views," then I would likely conclude that views have become much less polarized over the last century or so; people have managed to live in relative peace when compared to the level of wars, racism, oppression, savagery, etc. in prior historic eras.
Brother McConkie was probably focusing, as usual, on the perceived breakdown of the traditional family, due in large part to more liberal attitudes towards both individuality and sexuality. There is no doubt that the broad, general modern trend in the world has been away from religious dogma and towards more tolerance and understanding for different views and lifestyles. One negative side effect of that has been the rise of moral relativism and in some instances practically militant hatred towards religion in general. But that is not true about western culture across the board. I perceive that a great many people, who, although they reject some strict religious teachings (including puritannical brands of chastity), nevertheless retain a great deal of tolerance in allowing everyone to hold whatever private beliefs they wish, including religious fundamentalism.
Science and the availability of information have greatly changed the landscape of the evidence available to be considered by people in reaching their conclusions about religion. It is no surprise that the LDS church, which continues to cling to puritannical brands of chastity, feels threatened by the world's movement away from that philosophy. So far, the church has largely reacted by entrenching itself in its position (other than conceding that some people through no fault of their own have to deal with same-sex attraction and backing off on the prohibition on intra-marriage oral sex). If the church's actions, concurrent with the world's continued movement towards liberalization and tolerance towards sexuality can be considered a "polarization of views," then certainly it is happening. But it is by no means proof that the Second Coming is near. It is easy to point to the "polarization of views" as a fulfilled prophecy that proves the truth of McConkie's position that the LDS doctrine is correct and that the world is getting more wicked. But in fairness, I think we can say that people will always disagree, and that such disagreement proves little more than that the truth is not as obvious as some zealots claim.
On Apostolic Selection
A poll posed the following question with the following responses:
"What is the Prime factor for selecting an Apostle
God specifically identifies the man, and the President of the Church relays the message. (9 votes [33.33%]) Percentage of vote: 33.33%
Geography. The President can't choose a man he doesn't know, and he's more likely to know a guy from the Western US. (1 votes [3.70%]) Percentage of vote: 3.70%
Relationships. Similar to the answer above, the President uses his peronsal relationship with the new apostle (2 votes [7.41%]) Percentage of vote: 7.41%
Power. The church looks at candidates and selects those who can exert influence in their respective sphere. (0 votes [0.00%]) Percentage of vote: 0.00%
Spirituality. The President chooses the person he deems most spiritual. (0 votes [0.00%]) Percentage of vote: 0.00%
Wealth. The President chooses someon who has proven their abilities to lead and manage through ammassing wealth. (0 votes [0.00%]) Percentage of vote: 0.00%
A combination of two or more of those listed (Please specify below) (12 votes [44.44%]) Percentage of vote: 44.44%
Other (please specify below) (3 votes [11.11%]) Percentage of vote: 11.11%"
To which I responded:
I believe the first choice is extremely rare or non-existent, so I chose the "combination" choice, but I exclude choice No. 1.
"What is the Prime factor for selecting an Apostle
God specifically identifies the man, and the President of the Church relays the message. (9 votes [33.33%]) Percentage of vote: 33.33%
Geography. The President can't choose a man he doesn't know, and he's more likely to know a guy from the Western US. (1 votes [3.70%]) Percentage of vote: 3.70%
Relationships. Similar to the answer above, the President uses his peronsal relationship with the new apostle (2 votes [7.41%]) Percentage of vote: 7.41%
Power. The church looks at candidates and selects those who can exert influence in their respective sphere. (0 votes [0.00%]) Percentage of vote: 0.00%
Spirituality. The President chooses the person he deems most spiritual. (0 votes [0.00%]) Percentage of vote: 0.00%
Wealth. The President chooses someon who has proven their abilities to lead and manage through ammassing wealth. (0 votes [0.00%]) Percentage of vote: 0.00%
A combination of two or more of those listed (Please specify below) (12 votes [44.44%]) Percentage of vote: 44.44%
Other (please specify below) (3 votes [11.11%]) Percentage of vote: 11.11%"
To which I responded:
I believe the first choice is extremely rare or non-existent, so I chose the "combination" choice, but I exclude choice No. 1.
On The Claim That Rejecting Biblical Inerrancy Precludes Objective Standards For Truth
The question was put (August 2007):
"It is a well-known fact that Mormons reject biblical inerrancy. Yet, the Christian believes that the Bible is inerrant, and that without the Bible being inerrant there is no objective basis for knowing the truth.
Therefore, I would like to know, if you're a person who has rejected biblical inerrancy, what objective basis do you use in place of the Bible to determine the validity of truth claims?"
To which I responded:
I think the starting point is that, no matter how objective we try to be, our limited understanding will inevitably cause us to err. There probably exists no single universal foolproof method for arriving at the complete inerrant truth every time. We are put to the task of discovering it bit by bit, through experience, logic, reason, evidence, science, and last but not least, faith.
It might be convenient if all we had to do was open up a book to find out the truth on every pertinent subject. But God has placed us here to work a lot of things out in our minds, not to spoonfeed us.
"It is a well-known fact that Mormons reject biblical inerrancy. Yet, the Christian believes that the Bible is inerrant, and that without the Bible being inerrant there is no objective basis for knowing the truth.
Therefore, I would like to know, if you're a person who has rejected biblical inerrancy, what objective basis do you use in place of the Bible to determine the validity of truth claims?"
To which I responded:
I think the starting point is that, no matter how objective we try to be, our limited understanding will inevitably cause us to err. There probably exists no single universal foolproof method for arriving at the complete inerrant truth every time. We are put to the task of discovering it bit by bit, through experience, logic, reason, evidence, science, and last but not least, faith.
It might be convenient if all we had to do was open up a book to find out the truth on every pertinent subject. But God has placed us here to work a lot of things out in our minds, not to spoonfeed us.
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